A question of modesty (tzniut)
A few weeks ago, Brooklyn Wolf asked whether risque fashions saved tzniut/modesty. Here's part of his discussion:
One would think that tzniut were an obligation only of women, and only with regard to sexual display. This is not true--men's clothing is also regulated, as are other kinds of ostentatious display. Ostentatitious display both of wealth and of surface piety are prohibited. The latter ought to include clothing that ostentatiously covers more than normal."
Let's follow these thoughts with this discussion of "yuharah" (variously translation as presumptioness, religious arrogance, religious self-righteousness) by Rabbi Marc Angel. Take your time reading it--I'll wait.
Back yet? Okay.
Here's my question: Why are so many women in the Orthodox community careful to walk a fine line between attraction attention by being too dowdy and attracting attention by being too, well, attractive, while some of the men go out of their way to call attention to themselves by wearing such blatantly attention-attracting attire as streimlach and bekeshes? Why is calling attention to oneself considered immodest for a woman, but perfectly acceptable, and even laudable, for a man?
I don't remember where I read this, but didn't one of the rabbis of a recent century (the Chofetz Chaim, perhaps?) forbid his students to wear their arbah kanfot/tallit katan (usually worn under a shirt) with the tzitzit (fringes/tassles) visible? Whatever become of that standard of discrete piety?
"Tznius, would, in essence, say that only outfits that fall within a certain middle region of the curve would qualify as tznius. Too far to the left and you're attacting attention for being too dowdy (think about the comments that the Beit Shemesh burqua lady was getting -- even before the more serious allegations came to light) and too far to the right and, well... you're just not tznius anymore."
And part of a comment:
One would think that tzniut were an obligation only of women, and only with regard to sexual display. This is not true--men's clothing is also regulated, as are other kinds of ostentatious display. Ostentatitious display both of wealth and of surface piety are prohibited. The latter ought to include clothing that ostentatiously covers more than normal."
Let's follow these thoughts with this discussion of "yuharah" (variously translation as presumptioness, religious arrogance, religious self-righteousness) by Rabbi Marc Angel. Take your time reading it--I'll wait.
Back yet? Okay.
Here's my question: Why are so many women in the Orthodox community careful to walk a fine line between attraction attention by being too dowdy and attracting attention by being too, well, attractive, while some of the men go out of their way to call attention to themselves by wearing such blatantly attention-attracting attire as streimlach and bekeshes? Why is calling attention to oneself considered immodest for a woman, but perfectly acceptable, and even laudable, for a man?
I don't remember where I read this, but didn't one of the rabbis of a recent century (the Chofetz Chaim, perhaps?) forbid his students to wear their arbah kanfot/tallit katan (usually worn under a shirt) with the tzitzit (fringes/tassles) visible? Whatever become of that standard of discrete piety?
posted by Shira Salamone at 10:03 AM
21 Comments:
What is ostentatious to you, is normative behavior to them. It would be ostentatious for me, a modern orthodox jew, to deliberately dress in anything other than modern clothing, but for them, that is their norm, thus it is not yuharah for them to wear it.
Tzni'ut is a question of modesty, not wearing a particular type of garb. Within their community, which is the standard by which they should be considered, they are modest if they wear a shtreimel. Now, if they go around telling everyone how much it cost, that is not tzniusdikeh behavior.
Why do you worry/care so much about what Chassidim or Yeshivishe Jews do?
jdub, our hostess works in an Orthodox non-profit with a mostly Chareidi staff, so her Orthodox interaction is primarily of the Yeshivish/Chassidish variety.
Without overly speaking for her, I think you see her issues coming from the general "conservadox" spectrum, including which sees this as relatively "foreign."
The conservadox spectrum, that includes people like Shira on the Conservative side that are relatively observant (and take Judaism "seriously" as discussed in other threads), and those of us on the "Orthodox" side, who observe Mitzvot in a more rigid style find ourselves in a strange place without Judaism. We hold relatively "liberal" values (in a post Enlightment sense, not American politics), but take our religious obligations somewhat seriously.
In that spectrum, they see people with little to no practice, all the way to Shomer Shabbat and Shomer Kashrut individuals, either in a Halachic manner or a cultural manner, but see a large Jewish community. The "right-wing" camp, including the Centrist wing of Modern Orthodoxy, Yeshivish, and Chassidish crew seems like a strange bird from that viewpoint. We see people that ostensibly are of the same "people" as us, with some related practices (Shabbos, Kashrus), but otherwise holding a foreign set of values.
It causes friction, because as an observant Conservative Woman, Shira sees herself outside the norm in her Conservative setting for her seriousness, but way outside what anyone on the right-wing side see as "Torah Judaism."
I find her blog terrific, because being 30 years younger, I was raised to believe that we were all Jews, by parents that like her, grew up when that was the case, but now live in a world where the Jewish people are NOT united.
Orthodoxy, seen as the "observant" of the three "movements," looked on the outside like a non-egalitarian Judaism to that generation (where people in Orthodox Shuls weren't necessarily observant), and see what seems like an odd subculture. As someone that enjoys being observant, and is inside an Orthodox community, I find her struggles and experiences interesting and something that I can relate to.
What brings you here? You're a semi-regular, what do you enjoy of her blog?
"Within their community, which is the standard by which they should be considered, they are modest if they wear a shtreimel." JDub, my whole point is to question *why* such ostentatious dress is considered modest within their community.
Why do I care? Because some of the choices made by Yeshivish, and/or Chareidi (Chassidic or Mitnagdic/non-Chassidic) affect me indirectly. Here's a quote from that link re streimlach: "The shtreimel is the most expensive article of Hasidic clothing, ranging in price from US$1000 to US$5400. It is possible to buy a shtreimel from synthetic fur and this is more common in Israel. Usually the bride's father purchases the shtreimel for the groom upon his wedding. Nowadays, it is customary in America to purchase two shtreimels: a cheaper version (sells for $800-1,500), called the regen shtreimel (rain shtreimel) is used for occasions where the expensive one may get damaged." If a man spends that kind of money on a shtreimel or two, plus the cost of a bekeshe or two, plus $265-295 on a Borsalino hat (see here)--all of which will have to be replaced several times during a man's lifetime--and then turns around and complains that he doesn't have enough money to feed his children, who do you think pays, through charity and/or taxes? Why should Joe and Jane taxpayer and charity-giver have to spend our good money to bale out someone who's throwing his money away on non-durable goods that are totally unneccessary even on the basis of halachah/Jewish religious law? Much as I'm not fond of sheitlach (wigs worn by many married Orthodox to fulfill the religious requirement that they cover their hair), I must admit that one can make a much better case for sheitlach than for shtreimlach.
Shira and Al:
1) You can't call the norm of a community "ostentatious." By definition, if everyone is doing it, it's not ostentatious. It can only be deemed ostentatious by some other standard, which they would disregard since, in their view, their community norms are what counts. In your/my community, it would be ostentatious, in their's it's not.
2) Al: I enjoy Shira's blog. It actually reflects a lot of what I went through in the late '80s and early '90s, when I was trying to figure my place out. Fortunately, egalitarianism was never my bag, so my transition to mod orth went much smoother. I'm not criticizing her for her beliefs, wrong as they are ;), I'm simply wondering why the fascination with a group that is as far away from her beliefs/practice. (BTW, folks who wear a bekkishe/shtreimal are pretty far from my practice as well!)
I know Conservadox and Modern Orthodoxy very well, having lived both.
That's all.
Oops, that should read " . . . sheitlach (wigs worn by many married Orthodox *women* to fulfill the religious requirement that they cover their hair) . . . ."
"jdub, our hostess works in an Orthodox non-profit with a mostly Chareidi staff, so her Orthodox interaction is primarily of the Yeshivish/Chassidish variety." Thanks, Miami Al. You paint a pretty accurate picture.
"It causes friction, because as an observant Conservative Woman, Shira sees herself outside the norm in her Conservative setting for her seriousness, but way outside what anyone on the right-wing side see as "Torah Judaism."
I find her blog terrific, because being 30 years younger, I was raised to believe that we were all Jews, by parents that like her, grew up when that was the case, but now live in a world where the Jewish people are NOT united."
From my own perspective, the Chassidic male's manner of dress contributes to the sense of disunity among the Jewish people, the feeling that we are *not* all Jews, but, rather, that the "real" Jews are only the Jews who dress as they do. Al tifrosh min ha-tzibbur, do not separate yourself from the community," said the rabbis in Pirkei Avot/Sayings (Ethics) of the Fathers. We Jews constitute approximately 2% of the US population. Of that 2%, perhaps 30% is Orthodox, and of that 30%, a fraction is split among several Chassidic groups. How does that kind of splintering, reflected in clothing styles, contribute to the unity of the Jewish people?
"I find her blog terrific . . . " Rav todot, many thanks, Miami Al. All compliments cheerfully accepted.
". . . in their view, their community norms are what counts. In your/my community, it would be ostentatious, in their's it's not."
JDub, they don't live "in their community," they live in the United States! And they also live in the 21st century. Yes, they have a right to dress as they do, just as the Old Order Mennonites ("Amish") have a right to dress as they do, but why is it necessary? For openers, it's not required by halachah/Jewish religious laws. For closers, I don't think "al tifrosh min ha-tzibur, do not separate yourself from the community" applies to the Jewish community only, or else why would that rabbi have forbidden his students to be conspicuously pious by wearing their tzitzit visibly? I can't help feeling that the non-Jewish world thinks of these visibly-Jewish Jews as "the real thing," and the rest of us as . . . well, not so much so. And I resent it.
You forget, JDub, that the standards of tzniut/modesty *for women* are not based exclusively on internal Jewish-community standards, but also, on the standards of the broader community, as Brooklyn Wolf pointed out in his post. So why is that the standard for women and not for men? I repeat my question: Why is "attracting attention" considered perfectly acceptable, even laudable for men, but forbidden for women? If Chassidic male garb doesn't constitute what Mike called "ostentatious display," I don't know what does!
We're going to have to agree to disagree. You remind me of the old joke about the ultra-orthodox jew who gets on the bus and is criticized by a woman who says "I'm Jewish and I think it's shameful that you dress like that." The Jewish man says "but, madam, I'm Amish," to which the jewish woman says "oh, in that case, it's all right."
Whatever goes on with "who is a real Jew" is in your head. Why let them define who you are?
"Why let them define who you are?"
JDub, good point.
I'm a member of a Bostoner shteibel. At services. some of our member wear hassidic garb. I wear a jacket, black pants, white shirt, no tie. One person wears a kippah sruga (knitted kippah denoting religious zionism) and a dress shirt, but no jacket. We all get along. There is no pressure for me to change my garb.
Ideologically, the Satmar guy who sometimes claims to be a member of the NK and I are the only two people who openly favor separation of synagogue and state in Israel. (We don't agree on much else.)
Bostoners are known for being open to others but our shteible is every bit as authentic, IMO as anyplace in Boro park (where our rav lives during the week).
As has been mentioned before, Shira. there is plenty of diversity even among the chassidim/yeshivish.
Orthodox Jews comprise approximately 10% of American Jews, and this is defining Jew self selected and Orthodox by Shul affiliation. Since only 50% of American Jews are affiliated, this results in Orthodox Jews being 20% of affiliated American Jews. Given the higher "activity" rates of "Orthodox" Jews, (a Chagim only Orthodox Jew is likely to show up for all festivals, not just Rosh Hashana and/or Yom Kippur), it gives the impression of Orthodox Jews comprising a higher percentage than there are.
Further, because of "social pressure" to obtain a certain observance ideal in the Orthodox world, those that are not "fully observant" tend to not be so open or vocal. In a Conservative Congregation, it wouldn't be unusual to have a board member that shows up for Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur, in an Orthodox Shul of decent size, it would be unlikely to have a board member that isn't there every Shabbat and at least occasionally during the week, schedule permitting.
Even if, of the demographic Jews, only 70% are Halchically Jewish, I'm hard pressed to get the Orthodox number over 15% of American Jewry.
The Chassidic and Yeshivish Jews are a SMALL fraction of those that demographers would call Orthodox, but a large proportion in the NYC area and other communities where they congregate.
When you get to smaller towns, you will often find that there are two Shuls, an Orthodox one, and a Reform and/or Conservative (and occaisionally dual affiliated), and maybe a Chabad. Plenty of people there may attend the Orthodox or Chabad Shul, which would show up in a survey as Orthodox.
The third of American Jewry in metro-NYC is disproportionately affiliated with something that matches their ideology. A few other large metro areas have options. Smaller cities have fewer options, and small towns have nearly nothing.
Where my wife is from in a small town in New Jersey, there are two Orthodox Shuls (one of mostly retirees in the old Jewish area, and a Young Israel in a more affluent area), a Chabad, two conservative congregations, and a Reform Temple. The Conservative shuls are mostly split on socio-economic patterns, and the well-to-do families that financially support all the institutions, with there more traditional family members in Orthodox congregations, less traditional in the others, and a single community day school with an Orthodox Rabbi.
The American Jews are divided almost evenly: 1/3 NYC, 1/3 other major Jewish centers, 1/3 elsewhere, and in the non-NYC major Jewish centers, things are a bit more open minded, and in the outlying communities, people affiliate for the strangest reason.
Palm Beach, FL only has one synagogue, Modern Orthodox affiliated with a Chabad Rabbi, and a mostly non-observant population. There are no non-Orthodox synagogues, because people that moved to a town that originally prohibited Jews from owning property there didn't really want a synagogue, until some activists set up shop. It's my understanding that a similar situation exists in the Hamptons.
All sorts of situations exist. I agree with you on the separating yourself, but I think that dress alone isn't the issue, it's the package of behavioral norms that go with it. A well dressed guy in a well fit suit with a neatly maintained beard and short tzitzit hanging out that are white and not stained yellow and is polite and outgoing isn't separating himself from the Jewish community. The guy staring at his feet, yelling about the "Shvartzas and Goyim," refusing to say please and thank you to women, and other common courtesies IS separating themselves out.
I don't have a huge problem with the Charedi "dress code," I have a problem with everything manifested around it, and the over-the-top Chassidish garb.
"The guy staring at his feet, yelling about the "Shvartzas and Goyim," refusing to say please and thank you to women, and other common courtesies IS separating themselves out."
Do these people exist outside NYC?
"As has been mentioned before, Shira. there is plenty of diversity even among the chassidim/yeshivish." Point taken, Larry. I do tend to have a rather black-and-white picture of the "black-and-white crowd."
"I'm hard pressed to get the Orthodox number over 15% of American Jewry." Interesting statistics, Al.
"The third of American Jewry in metro-NYC is disproportionately affiliated with something that matches their ideology. A few other large metro areas have options. Smaller cities have fewer options, and small towns have nearly nothing." So, in many places, it's flip a coin and pick a shul, or, in some cases, it's skip the coin-flip and go to the only shul in town.
". . . I agree with you on the separating yourself, but I think that dress alone isn't the issue, it's the package of behavioral norms that go with it." True.
"I don't have a huge problem with the Charedi "dress code," I have a problem with everything manifested around it, and the over-the-top Chassidish garb." I'm not bonkers about the "uniform" look of the mitnagdic (non-Chassidic) Chareidim, but I can live with it. (I don't have much choice, since I see the "black-hat uniform" in my office every weekday.)
Chassidic male garb is another matter. I'm offended by it as a feminist because I think it's hypocritical for the Chassidic community to insist on strict standards of modesty for the women while the men wear clothing so ostentatious that you can spot a Chassidic male from a block away, literally. Why do Chassidic men think it's permissible for them to dress like the human equivalent of peacocks looking for mates? What's so modest about the *men's* garb?
Shira: "Why do Chassidic men think it's permissible for them to dress like the human equivalent of peacocks looking for mates? What's so modest about the *men's* garb?"
I think you're making some unwarranted assumptions here. Not that its my style, but I don't think the folks about whom your complaining see themselves the way you see them. They do not perceive the outside world the way you do, and are unconcerned about how you, or I, see them. They are satisfying the requirements of their rebbe or some other custom. As an old friend of mine, who now straddles the yeshivish/rwmo dividing line, once said -- if the lubavitcher rebbe (who was then still living) inadvertently sat on his hat, and then put it on his head, all his chassidim would immediately sit on their hats before wearing them.
They are married to their own customs, regardless of what the larger world thinks.
Have you ever been to the Bronx Zoo on Chol HaMoed Pesach, when busloads of folks descend on the Zoo from places like Monsey and New Square and Kiryat Joel? Many of the folks maintain the same style popular in 1750 Warsaw!
Shira, to pick up on one of the earlier comments, these folks are so marginal with respect to the larger US jewish community, why do you expend so much energy worrying about these things. Better to put that energy into building your own vision of American Judaism.
"They do not perceive the outside world the way you do, and are unconcerned about how you, or I, see them." You can say that again, Steve.
"Shira, to pick up on one of the earlier comments, these folks are so marginal with respect to the larger US jewish community, why do you expend so much energy worrying about these things. Better to put that energy into building your own vision of American Judaism."
I guess I'm still trying to figure out what my own vision of American Judaism is. Thus far, I've found the Orthodox community too unwilling to challenge traditional assumptions, and the non-Orthodox community too unwilling to be serious about their observance. (My own observance isn't that much better.) I may figure it out eventually, but I don't think that'll happen any time soon.
Steve's last paragraph summarizes it perfectly and what I most appreciate about you, Shira.
You are tremendously committed and have a lot of positive energy you can devote to Judaism. Why care about folks that don't particularly care what you think?
You live in the interstices between movements (as do I, although I am fine simply compartmentalizing). Work that area. It's the most interesting. Plenty of folks complain about the Orthodox (believe me, we make the best anti-semites). Work towards a positive vision of your Judaism. Who knows what fires you might light?
"You live in the interstices between movements (as do I, although I am fine simply compartmentalizing). Work that area. It's the most interesting." I must admit that I wouldn't have thought of it quite that way. :) "Work towards a positive vision of your Judaism." That's a major challenge, JDub, since I tend to be a "cockeyed pessimist" by nature. I'll have to work on that.
How the outside world sees us is how most of us over 40/50 grew up.
I have my radar when it comes to TV viewing. Because my husband is disabled we watch a lot of TV.
Last night there was a segment on "The Good Wife", a CBS show about a woman returning to the work force as a lawyer. The episode revolved around an Orthodox couple - they have the young husband dressed in the "Orthodox Jewish TV garb" of long coat, payot, hat, etc. - and the new wife who has just returned to the fold. The wife's father is a partner in the main character's law firm and estranged from her. The case involved an eruv that has fallen on Shabbat and a woman supposedly trips and sues the couple.
It was an interesting episode, but it displayed the fact that an eruv for most people would only be set up by "ultra-Orthodox Chasidic" Jews while we know that that is not the case.
For the viewing audience, the outward appearance and "behavior" of this couple served to identify them as "religious" Jews and not like the wife's uninvolved, typically money grubbing and rich father.
These were the "good" Jews.
Frankly, I was so thrilled to see a Jewish couple portrayed in any sort of positive light, that I said, "okay, at least they acknowledge that there are 'good' Jews."
It was an interesting episode.
And, I'm sorry, paying that much money to appear pious is ostentatious.
On another program about weddings - an Orthodox couple hired most of the Waldorf Astoria for a wedding that cost over a million dollars. One room was for the bedeken, the other for the tish, one for the chuppah, and then the reception. If this isn't an ostentatious display I don't know what is!
My comment:
"The guy staring at his feet,
yelling about the "Shvartzas and Goyim," refusing to say please and thank you to women, and other common courtesies IS separating themselves out."
Woodrow's comment:
Do these people exist outside NYC?
Yeah... they picked it up living in NYC for a bit, from New Yorkers during their year in Israel, or a from a Rebbe in college or equivalent.
They run around Miami Beach rudely... Miami Beach used to have a thriving Jewish community, now it's largely NYC Chareidi rejects taking over existing institutions... large chunks of South Florida's Jewish population are NYC Rejects, where the accountant/consultant/lawyer that got bounced in their NYC firm's up and out come down here, where the established NYC rejects hire them because they are from a prestigious firm (Jews and non Jews here do it, it used to cause a LOT of resentment between the locals and the people from NY, and the Jews all dismissed it as anti-semitism).
Basically, since the Chareidi world isn't economically viable, they glom onto an Orthodox community which is normally welcome because of insecurities that those are the "real Jews," and pretty soon they are sucking up jobs at the non-profits for which they aren't qualified, setting up their own minyan at an established synagogue that they don't pay dues to but slowly demand more and more accommodations.
Shira, be happy that when you "punch the clock" at the end of the day, they aren't around you. The situation in South Florida is REALLY screwed up.
We had a group meeting at Starbucks for learning once/week, sitting outside... it was nice, and one of the guys in going on about the laws didn't pick up on a discussion of "Jew and Gentile" that we were being quiet because it was a public area, and started going on and on about "Goyim, the Goy, blah blah blah," sure in Hebrew Goy means gentile, but in English, it's a slur.
"paying that much money to appear pious is ostentatious." Amen, Anon.
"Miami Beach used to have a thriving Jewish community, now it's largely NYC Chareidi rejects taking over existing institutions... large chunks of South Florida's Jewish population are NYC Rejects, . . . the accountant/consultant/lawyer that got bounced . . .
The situation in South Florida is REALLY screwed up." It's a good thing that I have no plans to move to Florida. Good luck, Miami Al.
As a reformed Jew, married Orthodox men wearing shtreimel hats appears incredibly hypocritical given the tradition of young brides being required to shave and cover their heads in accordance with tzni’ut/modesty.
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